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The primary reason for this is the buffed SPwB. This move is absolutely insane right now; 11f startup, crazy speed, and tracking strong enough to literally go behind Iru and catch the opponent there. Even the fastest characters in the game have to double-tap dash at mid distance, and triple-tap dash up-close, just to avoid it. If you're a slow character, triple-tapping is necessary at mid-screen, and up-close you may as well drop your controller. ***If you use a move, ANY move, instead of remaining idle and dashing, SPwB can punish you.*** Kae's dwA can be punished. Nath's Stage 3 tap wB can be punished. I think that conveys the point clearly enough on its own. At the wall, most characters are forced into a state where they literally cannot do anything without eating, at minimum, 500 damage, and at worst a combo extending well beyond 1k or even 1.5k depending on the circumstances (since SPwB combos into shotgun and the buffed NHyper, the latter of which it has amazing synergy with). And Iru's pressure with this move is such that pushing the opponent to the wall is very easy. Only the fastest characters can throw out moves and potentially be able to avoid missiles while doing so; if you're any slower, meter is mandatory to stay safe. This move stuffs the opponent's meter gain by making it too risky to attack (which neuters the downside of its graze feed somewhat), provides amazing pre-burst damage that makes it so no amount of meter can defend you from losing HP, and punishes so many scenarios. It makes approaching Iru hell even in spite of nerfed traps too, since you can eat 800 damage from an 11f startup move just for trying to go in and be pushed all the way back out again; strafing around it just doesn't work either, the tracking is too strong and the angle is great at catching people trying to dash around you. I cannot understate just how powerful this move is as of right now; probably the strongest move in the entire game.
All that being said, I actually think this kind of move is a step in the right direction for combatting AoS2's highly defensive and timeout-focused meta. It's just way too overtuned, is all. Currently it's so powerful that it ends up forcing Iru's opponents to play for a defensive, somewhat timeout-focused game anyway (much in the same way that Kyoko's pylon + cold stream combination does; very strong against timeout, but even worse if you try to go in on her). The few characters who stand a chance against Iru right now (Sora, Kae and Nath; I think out of all of these, Kae is the only one who has a chance of having an advantageous matchup against this Iru) are actually pretty fun and engaging to play against Iru, which I think is a sign that the character has generally become more interactive. Iru just needs toning down so the rest of the cast doesn't instantly fold to her now.
For nerfs, I think SPwB at the bare minimum should have its speed buff toned down from 1.5x to 1.2x. Nerfs into its startup (small, about 3 frames or so), and tracking (it should NOT be hitting opponents behind Iru, this is a death knell for slow characters) should also be considered. These nerfs IMO should be top priority. The other aspects of new SPwB I actually very much like; the meter feed is an important balancing aspect to it, giving opponents the one resource that hard-answers these accursed rockets right now (a very small nerf to its meter gain could further help with the balancing seesaw), and that it can pressure opponents and encourage them to assert control of midscreen is also a good form of interactivity; they cannot simply turtle and expect to win now. The damage is strong and the combo potential is scary, but I think these are not core to the problems the move currently has.
As for Iru's other moves:
-New NHyper is insanely good. 6 frames didn't seem like a lot to me at first, but if there's one thing I have THOROUGHLY learnt testing her, it's that it very much *is*. This hyper is now the best laser hyper in the game in terms of raw statistics, rivalling the speed of Sora's beam hypers without any of the RNG and also snappy turning. I think it's pretty damn OD right now, but that's partially because of SPwB; the two compliment each other disgustingly well. NHyper, even at its buffed state, can still be avoided by the faster characters if they stay mid-to-close range from Iru (dodging it at long range is very hard, which suits Iru's archetype well imo); but SPwB makes approaching Iru extremely hard and risky, and it also combos into NHyper, meaning the two moves combine to give Iru map-wide control and strong damage. SPwB plays a large role in NHyper's current dominance, but if SPwB gets the nerfs above then I believe NHyper might be more reasonable. I do think the startup buff should be toned back by about 2 frames, just to make it so slow characters actually have a chance of dodging it from mid-to-close range, but this is a secondary priority to nerfing SPwB.
-Tap/Held wB meter buffs are a step in the right direction, but I think the missile speed buff is a nerf in disguise. SPwB far outclasses them as a direct attacking option, even assuming nerfs; I think tap/held wB would be better specialized as an offensive space control tool instead. If the missiles are slow enough, then Iru will be able to move independently of them and capitalize on their manipulation of the opponent's movement with something like SPwB or B Hyper. For that reason, I think the speed buff should be reverted; it also might be worth looking into a small (small) recovery nerf or a lower ammo cost to give Iru more time to move and/or make use of them as they fire out. Very low priority though compared to SPwB nerfing though imo.
-Shotgun + Trap changes are great and should stay. Trap startup + recovery nerf in particular is fantastic and allows every character to keep up with destroying them and breaking through to Iru; the shotgun loops they facilitate are still strong, but not ridiculous, thanks to shotgun's reduced damage. The nerfed ammo cost and meter gain (ammo cost especially) also have played a large part in reducing its spammability. It's too risky for Iru to spam this move now, and that's how it should be. I want to re-emphasize, these nerfs should stay; rebuffing traps is a risk that should not be taken under any circumstance imo.
-B hyper is so fun lmao
Keep in mind this is all based on my first impressions, though I doubt my opinions on SPwB will change. If my mentality changes before the end of this testing period, I will make another post on the subject.
Tap & hold wB I believe was fine & didn't need to be changed, it has a purpose of extending a shotgun combo, an attack to K.O a low HP opponent, and to get a stun that can turn into a beam hit. Tap wB is more niche in the beta since it's harder to get a lucky hit with, it also isn't as useful for extending the shotgun combo since the combo usually has awkward positioning & having missile fly behind Iru helps get those close range hits. The increased speed of the missile I think hurts the weapon as the missiles do not stay on the screen longer, and with SPwb being as good as it is at the moment tap & hold wB is left in the dust with no usage. SPwB is better at extending the shotgun combo, it's better for landing hits & getting the K.O, and I can turn a long range hit with SPwB into a combo with tap A! The speed increase I think may have been a wrong move for tap & hold wB.
Tap wA is functioning very well! I don't see any issues with it. Hold wA is also functioning very well. Both of these tools were fine before the beta, and they still are fine I think!
I currently don't know how to feel about the A-hyper changes, but I thought A-hyper was fine before. Before I'd usually prioritize A-hyper as a finisher or to punish an opponent who was hot & used a long startup move (since A-hyper had a hard time hitting before). At the moment it's extremely easy to get hits with and does big damage, but it's still dodgeable. The increased swerve I think is an interesting change, it feels good to play with the increased swerve. However with how good A-hyper is at hitting & dealing damage, I don't have a need to use B-hyper even though the increased damage was absolutely needed. B-hyper struggled with hitting & damage prior to this beta, it even dealt damage to it's user, it was virtually useless. Even though B-hyper still deals damage to Iru, the damage it deals seems to make up for it's hard usage (but it's outclassed by A-hyper).
I'm still unsure about how to make use of dash hyper, but I think it has a niche. I'll need to mess with it more. The extra missiles is good for extra damage.
The changes to the traps were needed, traps caused Iru's defense to overpreform & stall out the game. Currently it seems that Iru can only effectively pop out 1 trap to defend herself, the traps don't seem to last long enough for 2 traps to show effectiveness. 1 trap is good enough for playing against any offense oriented character I think, also Iru has SPwB to fallback on & hold wA to counter. The issue I see is with SP-hyper & SP-dash-hyper, both seem completely useless with how well the other hypers preform & with how short the trap duration is. Iru can put out better defense with Dash-hyper, A-hyper, SPwB, there isn't a use for SP/SP-dash-hyper at the moment I believe.
Overall I think the changes are heading in the right direction, but it's not quite there yet. It's very hard to make Iru fun to fight against, fun to play, & keep her identity that's been established by multiple games. These are also just my impressions after around a couple dozen games. Thank you for the beta & the changes! Keep up the good work!
What I like:
and the nerf-patch after to reduce their speed and spammability (but...)
What I personally don't like:
and last but not least,
thank you for updating the game all this time! As a (relatively) new player It gives me hope that the game and community behind it can survive for years to come with this sort of support.
-Sorafan in AoS2 discord
私もイル使っていたプレイヤーなので、イルのトラップを使う戦法が嫌いなプレイヤーが大勢いるのは知ってますけれど、イル自身はダッシュ速度が標準、迎撃に使える技が全部真正面に飛んでいくので避けやすく距離を詰めやすい、など防御面をトラップに強く依存しているとしか言いようのないキャラなので、生命線であるトラップを下方修正されるとソラやスターブレイカーのような近接キャラ、ヒメやスミカのようなコンボキャラの格好の餌になるんです。
分かりやすく言うと、トラップのゲージ消費量を大幅に増やした上で発生Fを超鈍化させた時点でイルに死ねって言ってるようなもんです。ねぇこれ誰か止めなかったの?
普通なら釣り合いを取る為にゲージ消費量の分だけトラップの耐久値を上げたり、画面内に存在できる時間を伸ばすものじゃないんですか? なぜ単純な下方修正のみなのか理解できません
例えば、トラップを画面内に同時に設置できるのは最大3つまで、のような方面の制限がトラップへの下方修正の妥当な落とし所だったのではないかと私は思います。もしかしてイルを殺すつもりでいらっしゃる?
LAの下方修正も少々やり過ぎに思えます。
LAはNAと比較して一発当たりの威力がとても低く、また弾速も遅いので、相手がトラップに引っかかっていて行動不能状態になっているか、至近距離で相手の技の硬直に差し込むくらいでないと、LAは複数の弾が当たりません。
トラップがここまで下方修正されるのなら、コンボパーツや差し込み技の要であるLAのダメージを下げる下方修正もいらなかったかと思います。
イルのHAのダメージが上がったのは一見素晴らしい調整内容のように思えますが、実際はゲージ消費以外でのダメージが非常に取りにくくなっているので、今まで異常にゲージ稼ぎのNAに依存する事になります。
しんどいです。個人的には調整前のイルの方が遥かにマシです。戻して
他の方にツッコまれる前に言っておきますと、確かにSBが仕様変更で真正面に物凄い速さでかっ飛んでいくようになりましたが、ウェポンゲージ消費量が多すぎて気軽に牽制に使ったり連発できるものではありません。
どちらかというと『まるで使い道が無かった奴がようやく使えるようになった』といった感じなので、もちろん技自体は強いとは思うのですが、下方修正された現在のトラップやLAに釣り合うような性能では無いと感じます。
長くなってしまったので言いたい事を箇条書きにしますと
・HAのダメージ増加は良いと思う。これ以上は上方修正も下方修正する必要も感じない
・他プレイヤーの気持ちは分かるが、トラップの大幅なゲージ消費量増加と発生F増加はやり過ぎ。イルが息をしていないので、同時使用できるトラップの数を3つまでにするなどの路線に変更してほしい
・LAは少々ダメージを下げすぎていると感じる。そもそも全弾当たるような状況下が特殊なのだから、元々LAには上方修正も下方修正も必要ない。あんなの当たる方が悪い
・SBは現状ちょっと強い気もするが、イルの技が軒並み弱すぎるが故の感想だと思うのでこのまま様子見してみてもいいと思う
トラップ関連にさえ下方修正が無ければ、イルがtier最下層を脱出できる良いバランス調整だと思います
イルの調整の第一歩としてはかなり不安です。頑張ってください
もしこの考えが変わったらコメントの加筆、修正を行います
余談ですが、他プレイヤーの『このキャラの時間切れ狙いの戦法嫌い!』という感情論がバランス調整に適応されるのなら、私だってあのキャラのガンガン攻めてくる戦法ゲームがすぐ終わって嫌い!って言いますよ良いんですか。
こういう類の事を言い出したら水掛け論でいつまで経っても終わらなさそうです
イルはトラップでひたすら自陣に籠もって相手のミス待ちでちまちまと攻撃して、時間切れの判定勝ちを狙う堅実で陰湿なキャラなんだからしょうがないだろ!
全て元に戻すのはちょっと反論出ると思うので、トラップの性能を全部β以前に戻した上で画面内に設置できるトラップの数を2個か3個に制限してみてほしいです
それならトラップの置きすぎによる画面制圧力や、イルの防御への不満は多少は取り除かれるのではないでしょうか?
現状イルは、ソラやカエなどの強い近接攻撃を持ったキャラへの迎撃手段が至近距離では何の意味もないSBしかありません
SBは当たれば相手との距離を稼げますが、外せば相手に大幅にハイパーゲージを与え、硬直も大きいので素早いキャラには迂闊に撃てません
しかし、現在のトラップはゲージ消費量があまりにも大きい為に複数を設置する事ができず、更に制限時間が短く耐久力も低いのでほとんど盾としては機能していません
せめてトラップのハイパーゲージ上昇量が下方修正される前だったらまだマシだったんですけどね……
前のレスで書いたかと思いますが、イルのダッシュ速度は標準程度の速度しかないので、トラップを使わずに近接攻撃の強いキャラから逃げ切るのは絶対に不可能であり、それらのキャラとは常にイル側がリスクの高い読み合いをさせられる事になります
少し強い言葉で表現すれば、イルと近接攻撃を持ったキャラの組み合わせは、イル側がほとんど詰んでいる状況に近いと私は思います
例えば、トラップと似たような防御オブジェクトを画面内に設置するキョウコは、結晶を活性化させたりハイパーゲージを溜める為のDAをメインウェポンゲージを消費して使います
そして、結晶を設置して相手の近接攻撃を牽制したり弾を防ぐ為のSBをサブウェポンゲージを消費して使います。
つまり、消費するゲージがメインとサブにバランスよく別れています
しかし、イルはハイパーゲージを稼げる技がメインウェポンゲージを消費するNAしか手段が無く、また自身を守る為のトラップもメインウェポンゲージを大きく消費します
イルは立ち回りでメインウェポンゲージを大きく消費するので、そのどちらかを弱体化するのはイルにとって非常に悪い結果を招くのです
恐らく、速くなったSBをトラップの代わりに使ってもらうのが今回の調整の目的の一つだったのだと推測しますが、残念ながらSBは近接攻撃を持ったキャラへの防衛手段には一瞬すぎて、イルが持つにはあまりにも弱すぎます
正直なところ、現在のイルのバランス調整はメリットよりもデメリットの方が大きいと感じています
イルを上方修正したいのか、それとも使い物にならなくなるくらい下方修正して殺したいのか分からないですね!
失礼な言い方で申し訳ないのですが、本当にイルを使っている、もしくはイルの知識がある人の意見を参考に今回の調整をしているんですよね? 雲行きが怪しくて不安です
それよりも、相変わらずトラップが上方修正を受けていない方が問題です
前回のコメント以降、私はイルを使って何十戦か対戦しましたが、イルにとって昔のトラップは必要不可欠なものだと再認識しました
その理由ですが、何度も説明して申し訳ないんですが、イルの主力武装はメインウェポンゲージを消費するNAとトラップの2つです。どちらもイルを支えるには必要不可欠な存在です
(SBもなかなかに便利な技だとは思いますが、これはあくまでも二つの技を補助する為の物です)
まず、NAを弱体化させればイルはハイパーゲージを全く稼げなくなり、シールドやハイパー攻撃をほとんど使えなくなります
シールドを使える回数が減るという事は、それだけトラップを設置して自身を守る必要が出てくるという事です
これは、皆さんが嫌っているトラップの裏に隠れて出てこないイルが更に酷くなる事を示します
(しかし、βイルのトラップがまるで使い物にならない以上、現在のイルの防御力は全キャラで一番低いと言えるでしょう。あのシャムよりも低いと断言できます)
そしてトラップを弱体化させれば、イルの防御手段はシールドのみになります
すると、イルはシールドを使用する為にNAでハイパーゲージを沢山稼ぐ必要が出てきます
しかし、イルがどれだけハイパーゲージを稼いでもシールドですぐに消費してしまいます
つまり、イルは相手からの攻撃を防御するのに精一杯になり、攻撃できる機会が圧倒的に減るという事です
因みに、これが今のβのイルになります
そうですね……そんなにイルにトラップを使わせたくないのなら良い方法がありますよ
①まずイルのダッシュ時の初速をナートの2倍以上にします
②次にダッシュ時の速度をカエの2倍以上にします
要はイルのダッシュ速度を誰も追いつけない速さにしてしまえば良いんです。そうすればトラップに頼らなくても相手から逃げる事ができますよ。やったね!
冗談はともかく、私の意見がまるでフィードバックされていないようなので、こんなところで長々と語る事に少々疑問が湧いて来たのですが、引き続き現実的な修正案を提示しようと思います
現在、トラップはβ以前のトラップと比べて以下のような下方修正を受けています
・エネルギー消費量が60%に増加
・起動、ダッシュキャンセル、回復フレームの増加
・当たり判定の増加
・接続時間が3秒減少
どうしてもこの中の修正を通すつもりがあるのなら、選べる下方修正はこの中から一つだけだと思います
正直なところ、どれを選ばれてもイルにとっては非常に苦しい下方修正ですが……
イルがトラップの裏に隠れてしまい、結果的に時間切れになりやすいという問題は私も理解しています
しかし、それは今回のSB(海外のコマンドだとSPwB)で改善されました
その理由は、今までのイルは相手から積極的にダメージを取れる手段が一つも無かったので、トラップの裏に隠れて時間切れを狙うしか無かったのです
ですが、SPwBのおかげで、イルがトラップから出て相手の前に出るメリットができました
あくまでも補助技ですが、これはとても大きな進歩です
今までのように、永遠にトラップの後ろに隠れるような必要は無くなるでしょう
以前のイルに現在のSPwBとニュートラルハイパーを追加するだけで今回のβテストは完成すると私は思います。難しい話ではないと思うんです
Iru's tap wA still gives her huge meter, deals large damage, & is unchanged. It's Iru's most spammed move. I don't think this move needs any tweaking with the current state of Iru, but if you are unsatisfied with Iru this may need tweaking (as well as other moves in her toolkit to get her in the spot you want).
Hold wA is still the same reversal tool (but it's not as scary as it was before), landing the triple shotgun loop isn't as rewarding, and probably isn't worth the risk anymore. I think hold wA is fine as it currently is.
Tap & hold wB is an interesting tool it's pretty much the same as it was before (combo extend & chip damage). I think it's fine as is, with the speed reduction I think it's good for combo extending the shotgun loop again.
SPwA & Dash-SPwA still has a niche in specific matchups for defense (but Iru now has offensive tools to actually do damage), it's awkward to use but I think that is the intent. Animations seem a bit off.
SPwB is the go-to 'get off me' tool. It's Iru's go-to for non-meter damage, but it can't be used recklessly as Iru will eat a punish.
A-hyper is Iru's go-to for damage, but it needs to be timed well or setup for it to hit. This is good as it's not guaranteed damage, however slow characters do struggle more against this. I think this weapon is fine.
B-hyper is still niche I think, it's mostly good for meme combo (but meme combo requires setup). I tried using it with A-hyper in a combo, I don't know if it's worth it. A-hyper twice might be better.
Dash-hyper is a great move for damage, but it's long start up means it's easily punished compared to SPwB. Probably works way better against slower non-melee characters who Iru is favored against.
Iru seems able to keep a trap wall up with the trap hypers due to high meter gain. I don't think this is viable however as any character can just use good timing to punish Iru, & Iru isn't doing damage with trap wall. It might be a very good stall tactic though as I noticed I was still getting positive meter when spamming only Dash-SP-hyper & tap wA.
I think Iru is fine at the moment, she plays pretty good & is close to the ideal state (if she isn't already there). I think the community views this Iru as fair compared to other characters in the cast. I'm personally not a fan of the new play style, but I noticed the player base seems to like it! I think ya did great with the tools ya have available!
Edit: A nice strength of Dash-hyper is that the missiles don't come out all at once, so Iru can use them to outlast half-shields, but the timing is kinda tricky though.